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	<title>Comments on: Immigrants, natives, orienteers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/</link>
	<description>Strategies for Internet citizens</description>
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		<title>By: Tixier</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-110397</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tixier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-110397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://hhhhhhhhh.info/tramadol/buy-tramadol-onlinea0.php]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://hhhhhhhhh.info/tramadol/buy-tramadol-onlinea0.php" rel="nofollow">http://hhhhhhhhh.info/tramadol/buy-tramadol-onlinea0.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: phil shapiro</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71727</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[phil shapiro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71727</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A nice older woman walks into the public library where I work, sits down at a computer at tells me, &quot;I&#039;d like to go to the web site to get 6 free toothpastes.&quot;

 &quot;Sounds like a scam to me,&quot; I tell her with a kind smile.

 &quot;I&#039;d like to sign up for the free toothpaste anyway,&quot; she says.

  &quot;Okay,&quot; says I.

  About 8 minutes later she says in an exasperated voice.

    &quot;This is a scam. This is a complete scam!&quot;

    I pause. And then say, &quot;Uhm, did I tell you that about 8 minutes ago?&quot;

     She looks a little embarassed -- and then says, &quot;Well, yes.&quot;

     The moral of the story? Sometimes you need to let folks come to their own conclusions. Give them some guidance, but let them proceed along the path more warily. 

        And in the end, they may end up trusting you more.

              Phil Shapiro, Public Geek
              Takoma Park Maryland Library]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A nice older woman walks into the public library where I work, sits down at a computer at tells me, &#8220;I&#8217;d like to go to the web site to get 6 free toothpastes.&#8221;</p>
<p> &#8220;Sounds like a scam to me,&#8221; I tell her with a kind smile.</p>
<p> &#8220;I&#8217;d like to sign up for the free toothpaste anyway,&#8221; she says.</p>
<p>  &#8220;Okay,&#8221; says I.</p>
<p>  About 8 minutes later she says in an exasperated voice.</p>
<p>    &#8220;This is a scam. This is a complete scam!&#8221;</p>
<p>    I pause. And then say, &#8220;Uhm, did I tell you that about 8 minutes ago?&#8221;</p>
<p>     She looks a little embarassed &#8212; and then says, &#8220;Well, yes.&#8221;</p>
<p>     The moral of the story? Sometimes you need to let folks come to their own conclusions. Give them some guidance, but let them proceed along the path more warily. </p>
<p>        And in the end, they may end up trusting you more.</p>
<p>              Phil Shapiro, Public Geek<br />
              Takoma Park Maryland Library</p>
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		<title>By: tlt</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71725</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tlt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71725</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You may as well teach the reading of email headers now.  You&#039;re assuming the current clumsy attempts will continue to be the norm.  I predict future phishing emails will become more sophisticated so that the obvious wrongness is no longer a good measure of authenticity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may as well teach the reading of email headers now.  You&#8217;re assuming the current clumsy attempts will continue to be the norm.  I predict future phishing emails will become more sophisticated so that the obvious wrongness is no longer a good measure of authenticity.</p>
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		<title>By: engtech</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71628</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[engtech]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like that most banks now have a &quot;we will never email you asking for you to login&quot; plastered all over their websites.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like that most banks now have a &#8220;we will never email you asking for you to login&#8221; plastered all over their websites.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Zelenka</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71626</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne Zelenka]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was introduced to the idea of orienteering by Jaime Teevan, who&#039;s now with Microsoft Research. She&#039;s doing tons of interesting stuff with search and with personal information management -- maybe she&#039;d make a good podcast interview subject for you sometime, Jon.

Not sure &quot;mountaineering&quot; is better than orienteering since few mountaineers head out without knowing which exact peak they want to climb. But I like that it incorporates the idea of finding local maximums, if that&#039;s implied by it, and the idea of getting off the plains quickly. 

At any rate, I think the important point of calling it orienteering or mountaineering is to get away from the idea that a one-step leap is always desirable in searching online and to better understand how users actually search rather than how search engines might suggest we should search.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was introduced to the idea of orienteering by Jaime Teevan, who&#8217;s now with Microsoft Research. She&#8217;s doing tons of interesting stuff with search and with personal information management &#8212; maybe she&#8217;d make a good podcast interview subject for you sometime, Jon.</p>
<p>Not sure &#8220;mountaineering&#8221; is better than orienteering since few mountaineers head out without knowing which exact peak they want to climb. But I like that it incorporates the idea of finding local maximums, if that&#8217;s implied by it, and the idea of getting off the plains quickly. </p>
<p>At any rate, I think the important point of calling it orienteering or mountaineering is to get away from the idea that a one-step leap is always desirable in searching online and to better understand how users actually search rather than how search engines might suggest we should search.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71624</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Udell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;even using the term orienteering is misleading&quot;

It&#039;s admittedly a bit of a stretch. I would say though that even when on familiar ground, natives often encounter unfamiliar circumstances. In navigating through them, they rely on a multiplicity of (often tacit) strategies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;even using the term orienteering is misleading&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s admittedly a bit of a stretch. I would say though that even when on familiar ground, natives often encounter unfamiliar circumstances. In navigating through them, they rely on a multiplicity of (often tacit) strategies.</p>
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		<title>By: Eoin</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eoin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When you talk about the strategy of &#039;orienteering&#039; I am just not sure it is an apt term in every case. While I think the &#039;teleport&#039; metaphor is correct for that scenario, the orienteering metaphor just seems to be inappropriate for some search scenarios.

In the case of the example Anne Zelenka quoted - &lt;em&gt;refinding the article you knew existed&lt;/em&gt;, when you started you already had a destination in mind and thus orienteering would be the correct metaphor.

However, in many cases, users won&#039;t actually know the exact destination when they start looking, hence, I believe, even using the term orienteering is misleading. 

For situations such as these, a term closer to mountaineering might possibly be more appropriate.

Within a specific search space, there may be a number of solutions with differing degrees of &quot;rightness&quot;. And, for a complete solution, a user may even need something from each.

If we imagine the sources of &#039;rightness&#039; to be peaks above the plain of clutter or noise then a good &#039;mountaineer&#039; will be able to get off the plain quickly. They understand the paths and signposts that will take them to other potentially higher (or better) solutions and are equipped with the language needed to get there faster.

To continue the metaphor, someone who is good at this type of search is able to get off the plain of millions of potential answers and quickly climb to the apex of a potential solution. From the &quot;top&quot;, they will recognise other potential solutions on the horizon and be able to evaluate them and judge if they are &quot;higher&quot; - i.e. more correct. Additionally they are often able to climb &quot;slopes&quot; in different parts of the &quot;map&quot; and use these differing viewpoints to effectively weight the strength of the final solution. 

In this world, Natives, especially lazy ones, may only know their own neighbourhoods and may only be happy in their known world and thus would be poor &#039;mountaineers&#039;. They may jump on the logo emblazoned cable car every time.
Immigrants, on the other hand, may have all the skills needed to quickly become very good at &#039;orienteering&#039; or &#039;mountaineering&#039; and may just need to learn the language or how to read the map.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you talk about the strategy of &#8216;orienteering&#8217; I am just not sure it is an apt term in every case. While I think the &#8216;teleport&#8217; metaphor is correct for that scenario, the orienteering metaphor just seems to be inappropriate for some search scenarios.</p>
<p>In the case of the example Anne Zelenka quoted &#8211; <em>refinding the article you knew existed</em>, when you started you already had a destination in mind and thus orienteering would be the correct metaphor.</p>
<p>However, in many cases, users won&#8217;t actually know the exact destination when they start looking, hence, I believe, even using the term orienteering is misleading. </p>
<p>For situations such as these, a term closer to mountaineering might possibly be more appropriate.</p>
<p>Within a specific search space, there may be a number of solutions with differing degrees of &#8220;rightness&#8221;. And, for a complete solution, a user may even need something from each.</p>
<p>If we imagine the sources of &#8216;rightness&#8217; to be peaks above the plain of clutter or noise then a good &#8216;mountaineer&#8217; will be able to get off the plain quickly. They understand the paths and signposts that will take them to other potentially higher (or better) solutions and are equipped with the language needed to get there faster.</p>
<p>To continue the metaphor, someone who is good at this type of search is able to get off the plain of millions of potential answers and quickly climb to the apex of a potential solution. From the &#8220;top&#8221;, they will recognise other potential solutions on the horizon and be able to evaluate them and judge if they are &#8220;higher&#8221; &#8211; i.e. more correct. Additionally they are often able to climb &#8220;slopes&#8221; in different parts of the &#8220;map&#8221; and use these differing viewpoints to effectively weight the strength of the final solution. </p>
<p>In this world, Natives, especially lazy ones, may only know their own neighbourhoods and may only be happy in their known world and thus would be poor &#8216;mountaineers&#8217;. They may jump on the logo emblazoned cable car every time.<br />
Immigrants, on the other hand, may have all the skills needed to quickly become very good at &#8216;orienteering&#8217; or &#8216;mountaineering&#8217; and may just need to learn the language or how to read the map.</p>
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		<title>By: Claus</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Claus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The report Zelenka references as the source of the expression orienteering is available online (without ACM membership) here: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/92/HPL-92-127.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The report Zelenka references as the source of the expression orienteering is available online (without ACM membership) here: <a href="http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/92/HPL-92-127.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/92/HPL-92-127.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71613</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Udell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;although natives may be more fluent in their home culture, they may also be less critical of that culture.&quot;

Exactly. This is a key point rarely discussed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;although natives may be more fluent in their home culture, they may also be less critical of that culture.&#8221;</p>
<p>Exactly. This is a key point rarely discussed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Udell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I’m surprised you completely missed one huge source of such training: libraries.&quot;

Agreed. That&#039;s part of what I&#039;m driving at here:

http://jonudell.net/talks/lib2020/talk.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m surprised you completely missed one huge source of such training: libraries.&#8221;</p>
<p>Agreed. That&#8217;s part of what I&#8217;m driving at here:</p>
<p><a href="http://jonudell.net/talks/lib2020/talk.html" rel="nofollow">http://jonudell.net/talks/lib2020/talk.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Scott Reynen</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71610</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Reynen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m surprised you completely missed one huge source of such training: libraries. Librarians are experts in critically evaluating source relevancy, have been teaching others to do this since long before the web existed, and most have adapted the techniques they teach as information sources have changed. There&#039;s even &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.library.cmu.edu/Libraries/etc/game2/game2.swf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a librarian game&lt;/a&gt; about finding useful sources to answer questions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised you completely missed one huge source of such training: libraries. Librarians are experts in critically evaluating source relevancy, have been teaching others to do this since long before the web existed, and most have adapted the techniques they teach as information sources have changed. There&#8217;s even <a href="http://www.library.cmu.edu/Libraries/etc/game2/game2.swf" rel="nofollow">a librarian game</a> about finding useful sources to answer questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Drake</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71604</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Drake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/22/immigrants-natives-orienteers/#comment-71604</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Being able to evaluate the quality of the information you find is a core digital literacy competency.  And the immigrant/native metaphor is apt in painting a potential for differences across that generation gap--although natives may be more fluent in their home culture, they may also be less critical of that culture.  

The other point you make that I think is crucial is not only evaluating the information you do find, but what you don&#039;t... there&#039;s a real (human) tendency to stop searching once you&#039;ve found a minimally satisfactory answer (as you say, the first page of search results, or Wikipedia).  Seems to me this has a potential to normalize our collective thought towards a common denominator--not necessarily the LCD, but certainly reinforcing the majority view over the minority.  

We have an unprecedented variety of information and opinion available in the cloud... can we design search tools that help us to maximize the value of that collective resource?  And/or, how can we teach those kinds of critical thinking skills?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being able to evaluate the quality of the information you find is a core digital literacy competency.  And the immigrant/native metaphor is apt in painting a potential for differences across that generation gap&#8211;although natives may be more fluent in their home culture, they may also be less critical of that culture.  </p>
<p>The other point you make that I think is crucial is not only evaluating the information you do find, but what you don&#8217;t&#8230; there&#8217;s a real (human) tendency to stop searching once you&#8217;ve found a minimally satisfactory answer (as you say, the first page of search results, or Wikipedia).  Seems to me this has a potential to normalize our collective thought towards a common denominator&#8211;not necessarily the LCD, but certainly reinforcing the majority view over the minority.  </p>
<p>We have an unprecedented variety of information and opinion available in the cloud&#8230; can we design search tools that help us to maximize the value of that collective resource?  And/or, how can we teach those kinds of critical thinking skills?</p>
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