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	<title>Comments on: Tagging and foldering</title>
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	<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/</link>
	<description>Strategies for Internet citizens</description>
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		<title>By: Links of Interest for October 08 to October 11 - Corvus Consulting</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-127246</link>
		<dc:creator>Links of Interest for October 08 to October 11 - Corvus Consulting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-127246</guid>
		<description>[...] Tagging and Foldering [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tagging and Foldering [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NPSC Blog &#187; Search and Govt 2.0</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-122216</link>
		<dc:creator>NPSC Blog &#187; Search and Govt 2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-122216</guid>
		<description>[...] As I suggested in 5 Principles for Govt 2.0, the answer is Search. Or, in Jon Udell&#8217;s far more elegant phrase, we’re in the midst of a long transition from container-based to query-based storage and retrieval Tagging and Foldering. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I suggested in 5 Principles for Govt 2.0, the answer is Search. Or, in Jon Udell&#8217;s far more elegant phrase, we’re in the midst of a long transition from container-based to query-based storage and retrieval Tagging and Foldering. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mayuresh Phadke</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-69487</link>
		<dc:creator>Mayuresh Phadke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-69487</guid>
		<description>Take a look at http://code.google.com/p/dhtfs/

This will give a view of physical folders for tagged items, without actually copying items to multiple folders. This may help people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Take a look at <a href="http://code.google.com/p/dhtfs/" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/dhtfs/</a></p>
<p>This will give a view of physical folders for tagged items, without actually copying items to multiple folders. This may help people.</p>
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		<title>By: Search and Govt 2.0 &#124; NPSC Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-69144</link>
		<dc:creator>Search and Govt 2.0 &#124; NPSC Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2007 04:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-69144</guid>
		<description>[...] we’re in the midst of a long transition from container-based to query-based storage and retrieval Tagging and Foldering. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we’re in the midst of a long transition from container-based to query-based storage and retrieval Tagging and Foldering. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Cagle</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68987</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Cagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68987</guid>
		<description>Another approach that you may want to think about is to deal with a fixed hierarchical tagging system rather than free tags - define the taxonomy before-hand with the basic structure and then add terms as you need them. Drupal takes this approach, and while I&#039;m not really sure I like the user interface for the components, it does provide a fairly powerful way of creating organizational hierarchy while simultaneously not imposing that hierarchy in the physical storage system. Moreover, you can still assign multiple tags to the same resource, especially useful when you&#039;re uncertain under which classification a given resource should be located.

My experience with free-tagging is that you need a large number of resources and a large number of users interacting with those resources (and a cogent synonym mechanism) before free-tagging begins to show a significant value. Otherwise the time cost of maintaining the taxonomy can grow exponentially.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another approach that you may want to think about is to deal with a fixed hierarchical tagging system rather than free tags &#8211; define the taxonomy before-hand with the basic structure and then add terms as you need them. Drupal takes this approach, and while I&#8217;m not really sure I like the user interface for the components, it does provide a fairly powerful way of creating organizational hierarchy while simultaneously not imposing that hierarchy in the physical storage system. Moreover, you can still assign multiple tags to the same resource, especially useful when you&#8217;re uncertain under which classification a given resource should be located.</p>
<p>My experience with free-tagging is that you need a large number of resources and a large number of users interacting with those resources (and a cogent synonym mechanism) before free-tagging begins to show a significant value. Otherwise the time cost of maintaining the taxonomy can grow exponentially.</p>
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		<title>By: lili cheng</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68686</link>
		<dc:creator>lili cheng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68686</guid>
		<description>Some people think that you can just take concepts from the web and move to the desktop, or vice versa, but in practice it&#039;s not that simple...IMHO- &quot;tags/metadata&quot; vs. &quot;folders&quot; is a user experience issue --showing the web and the desktop bumping against one another.

Vista, to try to answer the question, we prototyped a few different models:  folders &amp; tags side by side (like photo gallery, which tends to have more UI), hybrid (folders as tags--FUSE is also in this category) and just folders or just tags.
  
We expected people would want a tag-based system... but found people use folders in specific ways, and when changed, it can is very confusing.  For example, people often call a folder &quot;stuff&quot; or &quot;old&quot; or &quot;junk&quot; --and use it to omit items... they get confused when a tag-oriented UX includes these items, especially when the &quot;old&quot; item is named the same as the &quot;good&quot; version of the item.  They tended to love tags for search, browse, and HATED for save, or writing to DVD or moving to a USB stick.  They didn&#039;t like it when the open/browse dialog was different from save.   People were confused (and freaked out) when they used a tag/type/search only system... because they were not able to &quot;find their folders.&quot;--and had spent years organizing their files into a folder hierarchy which worked &quot;just fine&quot;-- except in search where tags seem to make a lot more sense, or for organizing photos, music, etc.

We found out that even if you could get the design perfect, even small changes can be annoying because you need to think about things you do withouth thinking... Anyway, this conversation is really interesting because it will take us awhile to figure this out, and it will evolve as people become more familiar with different systems.  I think other UX issues, like sharing, privacy, identity, etc. are others which are also super challenging to get right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people think that you can just take concepts from the web and move to the desktop, or vice versa, but in practice it&#8217;s not that simple&#8230;IMHO- &#8220;tags/metadata&#8221; vs. &#8220;folders&#8221; is a user experience issue &#8211;showing the web and the desktop bumping against one another.</p>
<p>Vista, to try to answer the question, we prototyped a few different models:  folders &amp; tags side by side (like photo gallery, which tends to have more UI), hybrid (folders as tags&#8211;FUSE is also in this category) and just folders or just tags.</p>
<p>We expected people would want a tag-based system&#8230; but found people use folders in specific ways, and when changed, it can is very confusing.  For example, people often call a folder &#8220;stuff&#8221; or &#8220;old&#8221; or &#8220;junk&#8221; &#8211;and use it to omit items&#8230; they get confused when a tag-oriented UX includes these items, especially when the &#8220;old&#8221; item is named the same as the &#8220;good&#8221; version of the item.  They tended to love tags for search, browse, and HATED for save, or writing to DVD or moving to a USB stick.  They didn&#8217;t like it when the open/browse dialog was different from save.   People were confused (and freaked out) when they used a tag/type/search only system&#8230; because they were not able to &#8220;find their folders.&#8221;&#8211;and had spent years organizing their files into a folder hierarchy which worked &#8220;just fine&#8221;&#8211; except in search where tags seem to make a lot more sense, or for organizing photos, music, etc.</p>
<p>We found out that even if you could get the design perfect, even small changes can be annoying because you need to think about things you do withouth thinking&#8230; Anyway, this conversation is really interesting because it will take us awhile to figure this out, and it will evolve as people become more familiar with different systems.  I think other UX issues, like sharing, privacy, identity, etc. are others which are also super challenging to get right.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralf</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68553</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68553</guid>
		<description>&quot;Tags&quot; vs. &quot;Folder&quot; seems to me like a technology discussion. You are focusing in this article on what matters: the user experience. People should not have to understand the differences between the two approaches (and so we do not have to find better ways to explain it).  Google Docs is using Tags to &quot;display&quot; a Folder UI. A future storage for information (not a file system) with a related UI will address this. My hope in the past was that WinFS would serve as a basis for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Tags&#8221; vs. &#8220;Folder&#8221; seems to me like a technology discussion. You are focusing in this article on what matters: the user experience. People should not have to understand the differences between the two approaches (and so we do not have to find better ways to explain it).  Google Docs is using Tags to &#8220;display&#8221; a Folder UI. A future storage for information (not a file system) with a related UI will address this. My hope in the past was that WinFS would serve as a basis for that.</p>
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		<title>By: rascunho &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2007-10-08</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68467</link>
		<dc:creator>rascunho &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2007-10-08</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68467</guid>
		<description>[...] Tagging Foldering (tags: blog.jonudell.net 2007 mes9 dia8 at_tecp tagging foldering folksonomy) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tagging Foldering (tags: blog.jonudell.net 2007 mes9 dia8 at_tecp tagging foldering folksonomy) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68108</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Udell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68108</guid>
		<description>Chaim: &quot;extend NTFS to include tagging via an intermediate kernel level driver&quot;

Jed: &quot;FUSE does what you want — an arbitrary data source can be realized as a set of “real” folders.&quot;

Hmm. This does sound promising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaim: &#8220;extend NTFS to include tagging via an intermediate kernel level driver&#8221;</p>
<p>Jed: &#8220;FUSE does what you want — an arbitrary data source can be realized as a set of “real” folders.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmm. This does sound promising.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68106</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Udell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-68106</guid>
		<description>&quot;The issue I keep running into is related to the decision process for tagging.&quot;

You&#039;re working alone there, which makes it much harder. In a share information space you can leverage the classification work done by other people. Which is a yet another incentive to move collaboration out of email and into some kind of shared space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The issue I keep running into is related to the decision process for tagging.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re working alone there, which makes it much harder. In a share information space you can leverage the classification work done by other people. Which is a yet another incentive to move collaboration out of email and into some kind of shared space.</p>
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		<title>By: Jed Harris</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67959</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67959</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://fuse.sourceforge.net/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;FUSE&lt;/a&gt; does what you want  -- an arbitrary data source can be realized as a set of &quot;real&quot; folders.  Turning tag streams, RSS feeds, etc. into folders is easy.  The incoherence of picture tagging mechanisms could be converted into uniform foldering by appropriate FUSE programming.  

The folders are native OS folders, so all applications can use them without knowing they are &quot;virtual&quot;.  

The Windows support isn&#039;t all there yet, but who uses Windows anyway? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://fuse.sourceforge.net/" rel="nofollow">FUSE</a> does what you want  &#8212; an arbitrary data source can be realized as a set of &#8220;real&#8221; folders.  Turning tag streams, RSS feeds, etc. into folders is easy.  The incoherence of picture tagging mechanisms could be converted into uniform foldering by appropriate FUSE programming.  </p>
<p>The folders are native OS folders, so all applications can use them without knowing they are &#8220;virtual&#8221;.  </p>
<p>The Windows support isn&#8217;t all there yet, but who uses Windows anyway? :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Krause</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67765</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaim Krause</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67765</guid>
		<description>If we are going to talk about this on MS Windows, then I can think of two &quot;solutions&quot;. One is extend NTFS to include tagging via an intermediate kernel level driver, or create a utility to intercept all open/save  dialog boxes and replace them with a custom open/save dialog that supports symlinks/tagging that *looks* like standard directories/folders to the calling program. I imagine that somebody has already already got something working at least at a beta stage at this point following one of these principles. Maybe we just haven&#039;t scoured the newsgroups, forums, and mailing lists well enough to find it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we are going to talk about this on MS Windows, then I can think of two &#8220;solutions&#8221;. One is extend NTFS to include tagging via an intermediate kernel level driver, or create a utility to intercept all open/save  dialog boxes and replace them with a custom open/save dialog that supports symlinks/tagging that *looks* like standard directories/folders to the calling program. I imagine that somebody has already already got something working at least at a beta stage at this point following one of these principles. Maybe we just haven&#8217;t scoured the newsgroups, forums, and mailing lists well enough to find it.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Roberts</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67745</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67745</guid>
		<description>Jon,
I&#039;ve been trying the tag approach for management of email - all my processed mail goes into a single folder, but is tagged with categories, an Outlook functionality.  The issue I keep running into is related to the decision process for tagging.  Imagine the first email that shows up that is the very first of a new idea to be tagged - generally i don&#039;t &quot;get it&quot; then.  So after the 6-10th email it hits me - this a tag worthy set, so I go back to search and tag.  so the first issue is recognition.

The second issue is tag consistency.  I have the issue with long running, low volume chains, and when I see an item i sometimes get that nagging felleing that this belongs to a existing tag, but i&#039;m not sure wich one.  So maybe i get it right and maybe i don&#039;t.  This is further complicated by the next issue...

Tag hierarchy or interrelatedness.   Image the simple case of product x versions 1, 2 and 3.   Further deployed in locations a, b, c, which also have products y and z.  permutations and combinations start to get overwhelming, and the decision to create a set identifier, a molecule, that is treated a s single tag becomes very enticing.  then the need to programaticly explode the molecule to it&#039;s constituent atomic elemental tags becomes a necessity to provide the ability to find something based on it&#039;s atomic tags. And the need to identify molecule tags as differentiated from atom tags.  Whew - I&#039;ve become an info chemist!

The long and short of it is that information classification is fluid, and the tools for making it happen are embryonic. The</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon,<br />
I&#8217;ve been trying the tag approach for management of email &#8211; all my processed mail goes into a single folder, but is tagged with categories, an Outlook functionality.  The issue I keep running into is related to the decision process for tagging.  Imagine the first email that shows up that is the very first of a new idea to be tagged &#8211; generally i don&#8217;t &#8220;get it&#8221; then.  So after the 6-10th email it hits me &#8211; this a tag worthy set, so I go back to search and tag.  so the first issue is recognition.</p>
<p>The second issue is tag consistency.  I have the issue with long running, low volume chains, and when I see an item i sometimes get that nagging felleing that this belongs to a existing tag, but i&#8217;m not sure wich one.  So maybe i get it right and maybe i don&#8217;t.  This is further complicated by the next issue&#8230;</p>
<p>Tag hierarchy or interrelatedness.   Image the simple case of product x versions 1, 2 and 3.   Further deployed in locations a, b, c, which also have products y and z.  permutations and combinations start to get overwhelming, and the decision to create a set identifier, a molecule, that is treated a s single tag becomes very enticing.  then the need to programaticly explode the molecule to it&#8217;s constituent atomic elemental tags becomes a necessity to provide the ability to find something based on it&#8217;s atomic tags. And the need to identify molecule tags as differentiated from atom tags.  Whew &#8211; I&#8217;ve become an info chemist!</p>
<p>The long and short of it is that information classification is fluid, and the tools for making it happen are embryonic. The</p>
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		<title>By: Pascal Van Hecke</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67734</link>
		<dc:creator>Pascal Van Hecke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67734</guid>
		<description>@patrice : our comments crossed :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@patrice : our comments crossed :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Pascal Van Hecke</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67733</link>
		<dc:creator>Pascal Van Hecke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/10/03/tagging-and-foldering/#comment-67733</guid>
		<description>&quot;how can we help people understand the relationship between these two approaches?&quot;

By using metaphors.
The metaphor I use is the following:

Imagine you&#039;re managing a store.  You put stuff in aisles, racks, boxes.  Those are your hierarchical folders  You can&#039;t put anything in two places at the same time - that&#039;s not possible in the physical world.

But you can put several tags/labels on stuff.  You could put &quot;1997&quot; on wine.  And &quot;France&quot;, and &quot;reserved by X&quot;.  But you can also put &quot;1997&quot; on marmalade jars (not sure whether that would be a successful product), together with still other labels/tags like &quot;for children&quot;, or &quot;Christmas&quot;.

That way the shop-boy can quickly go through the aisles and racks and boxes and come up with a selection of products when someone asks: &quot;I want to have stuff from 1997 for my company&#039;s 10th anniversary&quot;.  Or &quot;I want to by my little nephew a present but I have no clue what to give yet&quot;.

You can use as many labels you want for any purpose you like, as long as you think it&#039;s useful to be able to make the selections you think you&#039;ll want to make later on.  And you can come up with more labels anytime - whereas with the distribution of your stuff in aisles and racks and boxes, you really have to think about beforehand what the most handy way of arranging your stuff in the shop would be, because it&#039;ll be a hell of a lot of work if you want to change that arrangement afterwards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;how can we help people understand the relationship between these two approaches?&#8221;</p>
<p>By using metaphors.<br />
The metaphor I use is the following:</p>
<p>Imagine you&#8217;re managing a store.  You put stuff in aisles, racks, boxes.  Those are your hierarchical folders  You can&#8217;t put anything in two places at the same time &#8211; that&#8217;s not possible in the physical world.</p>
<p>But you can put several tags/labels on stuff.  You could put &#8220;1997&#8243; on wine.  And &#8220;France&#8221;, and &#8220;reserved by X&#8221;.  But you can also put &#8220;1997&#8243; on marmalade jars (not sure whether that would be a successful product), together with still other labels/tags like &#8220;for children&#8221;, or &#8220;Christmas&#8221;.</p>
<p>That way the shop-boy can quickly go through the aisles and racks and boxes and come up with a selection of products when someone asks: &#8220;I want to have stuff from 1997 for my company&#8217;s 10th anniversary&#8221;.  Or &#8220;I want to by my little nephew a present but I have no clue what to give yet&#8221;.</p>
<p>You can use as many labels you want for any purpose you like, as long as you think it&#8217;s useful to be able to make the selections you think you&#8217;ll want to make later on.  And you can come up with more labels anytime &#8211; whereas with the distribution of your stuff in aisles and racks and boxes, you really have to think about beforehand what the most handy way of arranging your stuff in the shop would be, because it&#8217;ll be a hell of a lot of work if you want to change that arrangement afterwards.</p>
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