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	<title>Comments on: Tagging is declarative programming for everybody</title>
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	<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/</link>
	<description>Strategies for Internet citizens</description>
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		<title>By: The YouTubing of Google Earth ... building a global tagspace–TechBizMedia</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-68988</link>
		<dc:creator>The YouTubing of Google Earth ... building a global tagspace–TechBizMedia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-68988</guid>
		<description>[...] the entire world will be tagged by its citizens&#8221;. This immediately brought to mind some of Jon Udell&#8217;s thoughts on tagging (and here). The challenge has always been user participation in this universal tagspace, and a lack [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the entire world will be tagged by its citizens&#8221;. This immediately brought to mind some of Jon Udell&#8217;s thoughts on tagging (and here). The challenge has always been user participation in this universal tagspace, and a lack [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A little bit about everything &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A conversation with Jeannette Wing about computational thinking</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-30538</link>
		<dc:creator>A little bit about everything &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A conversation with Jeannette Wing about computational thinking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-30538</guid>
		<description>[...] show on ITConversations explores what Jeannette Wing means by computational thinking. As I noted here, she has coined that evocative phrase to suggest how the intellectual tools of computer science — [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] show on ITConversations explores what Jeannette Wing means by computational thinking. As I noted here, she has coined that evocative phrase to suggest how the intellectual tools of computer science — [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A conversation with Jeannette Wing about computational thinking &#171; Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-30404</link>
		<dc:creator>A conversation with Jeannette Wing about computational thinking &#171; Jon Udell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-30404</guid>
		<description>[...] show on ITConversations explores what Jeannette Wing means by computational thinking. As I noted here, she has coined that evocative phrase to suggest how the intellectual tools of computer science — [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] show on ITConversations explores what Jeannette Wing means by computational thinking. As I noted here, she has coined that evocative phrase to suggest how the intellectual tools of computer science — [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Computer Science is not just about Programming &#171; Dorai&#8217;s LearnLog</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-19610</link>
		<dc:creator>Computer Science is not just about Programming &#171; Dorai&#8217;s LearnLog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 05:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-19610</guid>
		<description>[...] to Jon for providing this link. I hope we can teach this to kids and kindle their interest in Computational Thinking. What is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to Jon for providing this link. I hope we can teach this to kids and kindle their interest in Computational Thinking. What is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Rue</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-16514</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Rue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 21:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-16514</guid>
		<description>Tagging can easily become the underbrush of the trees that make up the forest. Can&#039;t see the forest for the trees....Uh what trees? Can&#039;t see the trees for the underbrush. George, which tag did you put the GPS under?

As to &quot;Computational Thinking&quot;.. isn&#039;t that a bit like putting the cart before the horse? I mean, what came first, the human or the computer? The idea of teaching &quot;computational thinking&quot; is to educate people to think like how a computer is programmed. Programmed by another - therefore to think like another or how another wants you to think, not to forget that in some places there are software patents where you might then be expectd to not infringe or pay a licensing fee to ....think???) Instead of being the creator you become the created.. And &quot;Computational Thinking&quot; doesn&#039;t seem to require what is typically expected in learning... the verification of understanding feedback loop.

Microsoft is not known for educating the end user, but rather dumbing down the user base and supporting anti-trust against the consumer. Is there evidence of change enough?

So we get to be in a forest of thick underbrush and gotta be careful of traps all over the place in how we think?

Maybe thats a bit extream, but I believe there is a fundamental failure in all this. A failure to recognize and teach the fundamentals of abstraction creation and use. Just as math requires teaching the numbering symbols and what they mean along with basic addition, so is there fundamentals to teach regarding Abstraction and Automation of. And in so doing provide the fundamental computer based functionality that anyone can enable their own feedback loop of verification of computational matter.

Generally its an established understanding that to honestly learn computing concepts you have to apply them through computers (a feedback learning verification loop).   

I know a little about Tagging, how it can be done in different ways and at different levels.
See foot notes at http://threeseas.net/abstraction_physics.html regarding the &quot;Open Source as Prior Art&quot; project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tagging can easily become the underbrush of the trees that make up the forest. Can&#8217;t see the forest for the trees&#8230;.Uh what trees? Can&#8217;t see the trees for the underbrush. George, which tag did you put the GPS under?</p>
<p>As to &#8220;Computational Thinking&#8221;.. isn&#8217;t that a bit like putting the cart before the horse? I mean, what came first, the human or the computer? The idea of teaching &#8220;computational thinking&#8221; is to educate people to think like how a computer is programmed. Programmed by another &#8211; therefore to think like another or how another wants you to think, not to forget that in some places there are software patents where you might then be expectd to not infringe or pay a licensing fee to &#8230;.think???) Instead of being the creator you become the created.. And &#8220;Computational Thinking&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem to require what is typically expected in learning&#8230; the verification of understanding feedback loop.</p>
<p>Microsoft is not known for educating the end user, but rather dumbing down the user base and supporting anti-trust against the consumer. Is there evidence of change enough?</p>
<p>So we get to be in a forest of thick underbrush and gotta be careful of traps all over the place in how we think?</p>
<p>Maybe thats a bit extream, but I believe there is a fundamental failure in all this. A failure to recognize and teach the fundamentals of abstraction creation and use. Just as math requires teaching the numbering symbols and what they mean along with basic addition, so is there fundamentals to teach regarding Abstraction and Automation of. And in so doing provide the fundamental computer based functionality that anyone can enable their own feedback loop of verification of computational matter.</p>
<p>Generally its an established understanding that to honestly learn computing concepts you have to apply them through computers (a feedback learning verification loop).   </p>
<p>I know a little about Tagging, how it can be done in different ways and at different levels.<br />
See foot notes at <a href="http://threeseas.net/abstraction_physics.html" rel="nofollow">http://threeseas.net/abstraction_physics.html</a> regarding the &#8220;Open Source as Prior Art&#8221; project.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-05-11 &#171; Talkabout</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-15686</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-05-11 &#171; Talkabout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 03:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-15686</guid>
		<description>[...] Tagging is declarative programming for everybody « Jon Udell &#8220;Among other things, tagging may become to ordinary folks what attributes are becoming to programmers: a language that doesn’t just describe things, but also invokes and coordinates behaviors.&#8221; (tags: judell declarative tags) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tagging is declarative programming for everybody « Jon Udell &#8220;Among other things, tagging may become to ordinary folks what attributes are becoming to programmers: a language that doesn’t just describe things, but also invokes and coordinates behaviors.&#8221; (tags: judell declarative tags) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14294</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 18:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14294</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve seen fights over everything from territorial claims to trademark issues play out in the DNS namespace. Why do we think that as tagging grows more popular it will remain collegial? Even while it does, how much can it scale? What happens when there is a namespace collision among announced tags? Will ada07 belong to a meeting of dentists, dietitians, or programmers? In their current incarnation, I think it is difficult to manage tags because you have to know the meaning of a tag a priori (as Chris mentioned). If I&#039;m organizing a conference, there doesn&#039;t seem to be a canonical way to identify whether the tag &quot;ada07&quot; is going to be used for another purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve seen fights over everything from territorial claims to trademark issues play out in the DNS namespace. Why do we think that as tagging grows more popular it will remain collegial? Even while it does, how much can it scale? What happens when there is a namespace collision among announced tags? Will ada07 belong to a meeting of dentists, dietitians, or programmers? In their current incarnation, I think it is difficult to manage tags because you have to know the meaning of a tag a priori (as Chris mentioned). If I&#8217;m organizing a conference, there doesn&#8217;t seem to be a canonical way to identify whether the tag &#8220;ada07&#8243; is going to be used for another purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14262</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Udell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 16:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14262</guid>
		<description>&quot;If I see a tag like “podcorps”, and I don’t already know what it means, then there’s no way for me to find out.&quot;

In this case, the tag is an agreed-upon protocol that&#039;s used intentionally to coordinate a request for service. I expect to see lots of ad-hoc protocols arising that coordinate this way.

It&#039;s very easy for the service consumer to request service, and the service provider to respond to that request. Really, it&#039;s just a half-turn of the crank from the now-familiar practice of announcing, at the beginning of a conference, that the tag for the conference is, say, mix07. Agreeing on that tag makes it possible for a whole bunch of producers (of blogs, photos, etc.) to coordinate with a whole bunch of consumers (aggregators, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If I see a tag like “podcorps”, and I don’t already know what it means, then there’s no way for me to find out.&#8221;</p>
<p>In this case, the tag is an agreed-upon protocol that&#8217;s used intentionally to coordinate a request for service. I expect to see lots of ad-hoc protocols arising that coordinate this way.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s very easy for the service consumer to request service, and the service provider to respond to that request. Really, it&#8217;s just a half-turn of the crank from the now-familiar practice of announcing, at the beginning of a conference, that the tag for the conference is, say, mix07. Agreeing on that tag makes it possible for a whole bunch of producers (of blogs, photos, etc.) to coordinate with a whole bunch of consumers (aggregators, etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: Tagging is declarative programming for everybody « Jon Udell &#171; A Frog in the Valley Internet Stream Pulse</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14229</link>
		<dc:creator>Tagging is declarative programming for everybody « Jon Udell &#171; A Frog in the Valley Internet Stream Pulse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 13:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14229</guid>
		<description>[...] Tagging is declarative programming for everybody « Jon Udell [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tagging is declarative programming for everybody « Jon Udell [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Quenelle</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14120</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Quenelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 03:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-14120</guid>
		<description>tags are broken.  Because they provide such a narrow bandwidth, they&#039;re not as useful as they need to be.  If I see a tag like &quot;podcorps&quot;, and I don&#039;t already know what it means, then there&#039;s no way for me to find out.  Some sites allow spaces, some don&#039;t.  Some allow mixed case, some don&#039;t.  That makes it very hard to merge tags from different sites, or create any kind of clear picture based on large numbers of tags.  What you want is to attach a URL of some sort in place of a simple keyword.  The URL doesn&#039;t point to a document, it points to an idea.  For example, instead of tagging something with &quot;podcorps&quot; you should be able to tag it with &quot;http://podcorps.org&quot;. For example, I want to tag something with &quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_truck&quot;, not a mixture of &quot;monster-truck&quot;, &quot;MonsterTruck&quot;, &quot;monster truck&quot;, &quot;monster, truck&quot; (as two tags) etc, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tags are broken.  Because they provide such a narrow bandwidth, they&#8217;re not as useful as they need to be.  If I see a tag like &#8220;podcorps&#8221;, and I don&#8217;t already know what it means, then there&#8217;s no way for me to find out.  Some sites allow spaces, some don&#8217;t.  Some allow mixed case, some don&#8217;t.  That makes it very hard to merge tags from different sites, or create any kind of clear picture based on large numbers of tags.  What you want is to attach a URL of some sort in place of a simple keyword.  The URL doesn&#8217;t point to a document, it points to an idea.  For example, instead of tagging something with &#8220;podcorps&#8221; you should be able to tag it with &#8220;http://podcorps.org&#8221;. For example, I want to tag something with &#8220;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_truck&#8221;, not a mixture of &#8220;monster-truck&#8221;, &#8220;MonsterTruck&#8221;, &#8220;monster truck&#8221;, &#8220;monster, truck&#8221; (as two tags) etc, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: All in a days work&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13803</link>
		<dc:creator>All in a days work&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 12:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13803</guid>
		<description>[...] Tagging is declarative programming for everybody Among other things, tagging may become to ordinary folks what attributes are becoming to programmers: a language that doesn’t just describe things, but also invokes and coordinates behaviors. (tags: Tagging Programming) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tagging is declarative programming for everybody Among other things, tagging may become to ordinary folks what attributes are becoming to programmers: a language that doesn’t just describe things, but also invokes and coordinates behaviors. (tags: Tagging Programming) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rafael Ferreira</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13775</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael Ferreira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 07:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13775</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if this is relevant, but I see a curious relationship between tagging and logic programming. Tags are akin to facts (extensional information) and derivative resources are analogous to clauses (intensional information, establishing relationships between sets of facts) and/or queries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if this is relevant, but I see a curious relationship between tagging and logic programming. Tags are akin to facts (extensional information) and derivative resources are analogous to clauses (intensional information, establishing relationships between sets of facts) and/or queries.</p>
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		<title>By: Julien Boyreau</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13667</link>
		<dc:creator>Julien Boyreau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 18:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13667</guid>
		<description>Hi Jon,

Great article and link.
For me, &quot;programming&quot; is just a synonym for &quot;talking to a computer&quot;.
As for humans, to talk to computers, we use &quot;languages&quot;. 

All the history of &quot;programming languages&quot; is a run to near the gap between Machine&#039;s Language and Human&#039;s languages, from Assembler to Python or Javascript. 

In the end, someone will invent a language that can approach nearer from natural language, maybe by encoding properly all the natural languages constructs (Proper Nouns, Common Nouns, Verbs, Prepositions, Declarations, Questions...).

With this language, a human won&#039;t need a translator (=programmer) to tell the machine what things are or have and how to do things. 

One day...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jon,</p>
<p>Great article and link.<br />
For me, &#8220;programming&#8221; is just a synonym for &#8220;talking to a computer&#8221;.<br />
As for humans, to talk to computers, we use &#8220;languages&#8221;. </p>
<p>All the history of &#8220;programming languages&#8221; is a run to near the gap between Machine&#8217;s Language and Human&#8217;s languages, from Assembler to Python or Javascript. </p>
<p>In the end, someone will invent a language that can approach nearer from natural language, maybe by encoding properly all the natural languages constructs (Proper Nouns, Common Nouns, Verbs, Prepositions, Declarations, Questions&#8230;).</p>
<p>With this language, a human won&#8217;t need a translator (=programmer) to tell the machine what things are or have and how to do things. </p>
<p>One day&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rahul Dave</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13661</link>
		<dc:creator>Rahul Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 17:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/04/tagging-is-declarative-programming-for-everybody/#comment-13661</guid>
		<description>Posting with a &#039;socially broadcasted&#039; tag reminds me of RidiculouslyEastGroupForming where you trackbacked to a URI if you blogposted on a certain topic. But Much Simpler. Technorati will even search on your blog for tags, so a tag photo:keene on your blog could be used to set up a virtual flickr, in theory. Its worth asking how the social broadcasting of what tags to use can be done in a community..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Posting with a &#8217;socially broadcasted&#8217; tag reminds me of RidiculouslyEastGroupForming where you trackbacked to a URI if you blogposted on a certain topic. But Much Simpler. Technorati will even search on your blog for tags, so a tag photo:keene on your blog could be used to set up a virtual flickr, in theory. Its worth asking how the social broadcasting of what tags to use can be done in a community..</p>
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