Comments on: Watching Anders Hejlsberg reinvent the relationship between programs and data http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/ Strategies for Internet citizens Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:06:41 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Brad http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-14245 Brad Mon, 07 May 2007 14:50:03 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-14245 What I always like about any of Anders' talks is that he simplifies everything so well (and indeed, linq is nothing but simplification). For example, he demonstrates the skip and take ORM methods, then shows the query that is generated to make them possible; "row number over yakity yakity...". The query in SQL Server 2005 is fairly complex; the methods are simple. It seems to inspire confidence when someone as bright as Anders raises the level of abstraction. I get the feeling I won't ever find myself having to dig into the abstraction because it will be done right. What I always like about any of Anders’ talks is that he simplifies everything so well (and indeed, linq is nothing but simplification). For example, he demonstrates the skip and take ORM methods, then shows the query that is generated to make them possible; “row number over yakity yakity…”. The query in SQL Server 2005 is fairly complex; the methods are simple.
It seems to inspire confidence when someone as bright as Anders raises the level of abstraction. I get the feeling I won’t ever find myself having to dig into the abstraction because it will be done right.

]]> By: Gavin.B http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13871 Gavin.B Sat, 05 May 2007 18:37:01 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13871 Maybe OT, but did anyone mention security yet in the Silverlight context? I guess since the great MS push two or so years back it will be either: 1) thoroughly inherent in every part of the infrastructure 2) about to be bolted on as an after thought. Any afterthought? Maybe OT, but did anyone mention security yet in the Silverlight context?
I guess since the great MS push two or so years back it will be either:

1) thoroughly inherent in every part of the infrastructure

2) about to be bolted on as an after thought.

Any afterthought?

]]> By: links for 2007-05-03 « Talkabout http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13379 links for 2007-05-03 « Talkabout Thu, 03 May 2007 04:10:35 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13379 [...] Watching Anders Hejlsberg reinvent the relationship between programs and data ? Jon Udell “The server-based version uses Python to accomplish the same effects. With Silverlight it should now be possible to move that Python version back to the client, where it would probably run faster than the JavaScript version. But what I’m really interest (tags: judell javascript xpath metadata silverlight microsoft comparison join linq) [...] [...] Watching Anders Hejlsberg reinvent the relationship between programs and data ? Jon Udell “The server-based version uses Python to accomplish the same effects. With Silverlight it should now be possible to move that Python version back to the client, where it would probably run faster than the JavaScript version. But what I’m really interest (tags: judell javascript xpath metadata silverlight microsoft comparison join linq) [...]

]]> By: Mike Champion http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13274 Mike Champion Wed, 02 May 2007 18:52:25 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13274 The presentation is now online at http://sessions.visitmix.com/silverlight/v1/videos/DEV04.wmv The presentation is now online at http://sessions.visitmix.com/silverlight/v1/videos/DEV04.wmv

]]> By: Brian Kerr | links for 2007-05-02 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13167 Brian Kerr | links for 2007-05-02 Wed, 02 May 2007 04:29:29 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13167 [...] Jon Udell | Watching Anders Hejlsberg reinvent the relationship between programs and data (tags: microsoft language research Cω integrated queries) [...] [...] Jon Udell | Watching Anders Hejlsberg reinvent the relationship between programs and data (tags: microsoft language research Cω integrated queries) [...]

]]> By: In Re: » Blog Archive » Python in the Browser - brought to you by Microsoft? http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13145 In Re: » Blog Archive » Python in the Browser - brought to you by Microsoft? Wed, 02 May 2007 02:51:30 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13145 [...] There have been a bunch of announcements in the past couple of days about IronPython and SilverLight — will they beat firefox?Personally, I’m giddy about the prospect of using Python instead of javascript.  John Udell’s blog entry tonight specifically mentionsthat exact combination.http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-prog... [...] [...] There have been a bunch of announcements in the past couple of days about IronPython and SilverLight — will they beat firefox?Personally, I’m giddy about the prospect of using Python instead of javascript.  John Udell’s blog entry tonight specifically mentionsthat exact combination.http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-prog… [...]

]]> By: Alex James http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13120 Alex James Tue, 01 May 2007 21:41:19 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13120 Okay... so I stuffed that comment up... let me try again. - But second, and more subtly, that even the simplified query syntax in the C# code can be made simpler. The tool-generated code that represents SQL tables, for example, can now express relationships among tables directly. Given a table of Products and a table of Categories, you can eliminate the join syntax from a LINQ query and treat Categories as a property of Products. - I was talking to a friend (the author of an OR/M called Opf3) about this very issue, he was trying to implement IQueryable[T] and was having trouble with this: LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher() join user in context.GetObjectSearcher() on call.UserID equals user.ID where user.Name.Contains(”Christian”) orderby call.ID select call; When I said why not just handle this: LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher() where call.User.Name.Contains(”Christian”) orderby call.ID select call; Which is of course a lot simplier, but relies on a conceptual model, overlaid on top of the data model. This is what people don’t get about conceptual models… they simplify programming scenarios immensely. Jon: Please delete the other comment! Okay… so I stuffed that comment up… let me try again.

- But second, and more subtly, that even the simplified query syntax in the C# code can be made simpler. The tool-generated code that represents SQL tables, for example, can now express relationships among tables directly. Given a table of Products and a table of Categories, you can eliminate the join syntax from a LINQ query and treat Categories as a property of Products. -

I was talking to a friend (the author of an OR/M called Opf3) about this very issue, he was trying to implement IQueryable[T] and was having trouble with this:
LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher()
join user in context.GetObjectSearcher() on call.UserID equals user.ID
where user.Name.Contains(”Christian”)
orderby call.ID
select call;

When I said why not just handle this:
LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher()
where call.User.Name.Contains(”Christian”)
orderby call.ID
select call;

Which is of course a lot simplier, but relies on a conceptual model, overlaid on top of the data model. This is what people don’t get about conceptual models… they simplify programming scenarios immensely.

Jon: Please delete the other comment!

]]> By: Alex James http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13119 Alex James Tue, 01 May 2007 21:36:19 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13119 >But second, and more subtly, that even the simplified query syntax in the C# code can be made simpler. The tool-generated code that represents SQL tables, for example, can now express relationships among tables directly. Given a table of Products and a table of Categories, you can eliminate the join syntax from a LINQ query and treat Categories as a property of Products. The bottom line is not only writing (and reading) less SQL code, but also less C# code.<I> he was trying to handle this: LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher() join user in context.GetObjectSearcher() on call.UserID equals user.ID where user.Name.Contains("Christian") orderby call.ID select call; When when I said why not just handle this: LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher() where call.User.Name.Contains("Christian") orderby call.ID select call; This is what people don't get about conceptual models... they simplify programming scenarios immensely. >But second, and more subtly, that even the simplified query syntax in the C# code can be made simpler. The tool-generated code that represents SQL tables, for example, can now express relationships among tables directly. Given a table of Products and a table of Categories, you can eliminate the join syntax from a LINQ query and treat Categories as a property of Products. The bottom line is not only writing (and reading) less SQL code, but also less C# code. he was trying to handle this:
LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher()
join user in context.GetObjectSearcher() on call.UserID equals user.ID
where user.Name.Contains(“Christian”)
orderby call.ID
select call;

When when I said why not just handle this:
LinqQuery query = from call in context.GetObjectSearcher()
where call.User.Name.Contains(“Christian”)
orderby call.ID
select call;

This is what people don’t get about conceptual models… they simplify programming scenarios immensely.

]]> By: Mike Champion http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13094 Mike Champion Tue, 01 May 2007 19:09:48 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13094 Astoria exposes server-side Entity Data Models over the Web, but AFAIK it's not useable for creating generic mashups by joining arbitrary data on the web. The EDM does have a LINQ story, but as far as I know that's not exposed via Astoria. LINQ can take multiple data sources -- including the XML/RDF returned by Astoria -- and join them on the client, which with Silverlight can either be a traditional Windows app or a "rich internet/interactive application" running in IE, Safari, or Firefox (and presumably more platforms someday). More generally, don't try to find more order here than actually exists. This is evolution in action happening all over the company, not intelligent design by Gates, Ozzie, or any other supreme being :-) Silverlight, LINQ, EDM/Astoria, a bunch of stuff in incubation, and probably some unannounced products are all swimming around in the primordial soup right now. Watch what helps real customers survive and prosper, and how they cross-fertilize each other if you want to predict which of these technologies will rule in the long run. Astoria exposes server-side Entity Data Models over the Web, but AFAIK it’s not useable for creating generic mashups by joining arbitrary data on the web. The EDM does have a LINQ story, but as far as I know that’s not exposed via Astoria. LINQ can take multiple data sources — including the XML/RDF returned by Astoria — and join them on the client, which with Silverlight can either be a traditional Windows app or a “rich internet/interactive application” running in IE, Safari, or Firefox (and presumably more platforms someday).

More generally, don’t try to find more order here than actually exists. This is evolution in action happening all over the company, not intelligent design by Gates, Ozzie, or any other supreme being :-) Silverlight, LINQ, EDM/Astoria, a bunch of stuff in incubation, and probably some unannounced products are all swimming around in the primordial soup right now. Watch what helps real customers survive and prosper, and how they cross-fertilize each other if you want to predict which of these technologies will rule in the long run.

]]> By: Joe http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13086 Joe Tue, 01 May 2007 18:22:35 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13086 I think your last point would eventually use something like Astoria http://astoria.mslivelabs.com/. I think your last point would eventually use something like Astoria http://astoria.mslivelabs.com/.

]]> By: Ed http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13082 Ed Tue, 01 May 2007 17:38:08 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13082 Hi Jon, I was looking for a video of Anders' presentation - do you know if one is available, or will be available, somewhere? NOTE: You misspelled "Hejlsberg" (and I, for once, spelled "misspelled" correctly on the first try). Thanks, Ed Hi Jon,

I was looking for a video of Anders’ presentation – do you know if one is available, or will be available, somewhere?
NOTE: You misspelled “Hejlsberg” (and I, for once, spelled “misspelled” correctly on the first try).

Thanks,
Ed

]]> By: Roger Jennings http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13071 Roger Jennings Tue, 01 May 2007 17:00:07 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/05/01/watching-anders-hejlsberg-reinvent-the-relationship-between-programs-and-data/#comment-13071 I'll be interested in your analysis of the use of LINQ in the DLR in the "Jim and John Talk" demo (see http://oakleafblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/stealth-dynamic-languages-presentation.html) --rj I’ll be interested in your analysis of the use of LINQ in the DLR in the “Jim and John Talk” demo (see http://oakleafblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/stealth-dynamic-languages-presentation.html)

–rj

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