Comments on: I have met the enemy and it is tribalism http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/ Strategies for Internet citizens Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:54:49 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: On Twitter Media, FriendFeed and Quasi-Decentralization - Cataga http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-123910 On Twitter Media, FriendFeed and Quasi-Decentralization - Cataga Sun, 25 May 2008 18:24:54 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-123910 [...] of any service I’ve ever used. I’m sensitive, I /notice/ these things - gah! Tribalism is the new enemy as far as I’m concerned, and in my mind FriendFeed are already heading down that path into [...] [...] of any service I’ve ever used. I’m sensitive, I /notice/ these things – gah! Tribalism is the new enemy as far as I’m concerned, and in my mind FriendFeed are already heading down that path into [...]

]]> By: Bitbutter http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-15502 Bitbutter Thu, 10 May 2007 19:39:17 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-15502 <strong>“Wars are not caused by religion”: a reply</strong> Wars, invasions, civil strife and genocide are not caused by religion. Nor are they caused by atheism, rationality or science. Every war in history has been fought for the same reasons - power, influence, control of wealth, control of resources (inclu... “Wars are not caused by religion”: a reply

Wars, invasions, civil strife and genocide are not caused by religion. Nor are they caused by atheism, rationality or science. Every war in history has been fought for the same reasons – power, influence, control of wealth, control of resources (inclu…

]]> By: bitbutter http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-15457 bitbutter Thu, 10 May 2007 16:46:01 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-15457 "The two often coincide but they are not the same thing. Religion is not a pernicious force in the world. Tribalism is." Religion _is_ a pernicious force in the world because in many (not all) cases it provides a crucial framework in which tribalism can thrive. Tribalism and religion support one another. Religion discourages critical thought and creates a climate in which dogmatic faith is considered a virtue. Religion provides convenient ways to demonise the out-group, and moral justification for acts of aggression towards them. Religion demands the systematic indoctrination of children. “The two often coincide but they are not the same thing. Religion is not a pernicious force in the world. Tribalism is.”

Religion _is_ a pernicious force in the world because in many (not all) cases it provides a crucial framework in which tribalism can thrive. Tribalism and religion support one another.

Religion discourages critical thought and creates a climate in which dogmatic faith is considered a virtue.
Religion provides convenient ways to demonise the out-group, and moral justification for acts of aggression towards them.
Religion demands the systematic indoctrination of children.

]]> By: Better Living through Software » Blog Archive » Tribalism and Evangelism http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-3023 Better Living through Software » Blog Archive » Tribalism and Evangelism Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:20:41 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-3023 [...] Jon Udell talks about being an evangelist, and opines that tribalism may have evolutionary roots, but is more trouble than it’s worth today. [...] [...] Jon Udell talks about being an evangelist, and opines that tribalism may have evolutionary roots, but is more trouble than it’s worth today. [...]

]]> By: bob minnella http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2746 bob minnella Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:44:57 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2746 Religion will end in the 21 century end its abuot time.What will take its place we are not ready for.Hard times will folow by tribalism new birth. Religion will end in the 21 century end its abuot time.What will take its place we are not ready for.Hard times will folow by tribalism new birth.

]]> By: Ink by the barrel « Jon Udell http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2745 Ink by the barrel « Jon Udell Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:37:16 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2745 [...] moving toward the Transparent Society foretold in David Brin’s seminal book. When I attended the Highlands Forum the other week, I learned a bit more of that book’s backstory. I’d known that it was a [...] [...] moving toward the Transparent Society foretold in David Brin’s seminal book. When I attended the Highlands Forum the other week, I learned a bit more of that book’s backstory. I’d known that it was a [...]

]]> By: Christopher Galtenberg http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2704 Christopher Galtenberg Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:59:03 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2704 What is the Korzybskian analysis of the flaw in this discussion? That we're elevating 'tribe' to an inappropriate level of abstraction, that we're inflating/conflating the term to cover everything about humanity? (Every term under discussion should be placed in quotes, at least mentally) If so, I'd agree. For instance, I'm certainly not part of a so-called Korzybski-tribe just because I read a book by him or can employ aspects of his paradigm. I wouldn't die or kill or smear someone just to defend a particular thesis. I can argue a certain side, but not identify myself with it. That's the dividing line, I think. Not identifying = true individuality. My secularism, amateurism, and ADD has destroyed my sense of tribe :) What is the Korzybskian analysis of the flaw in this discussion? That we’re elevating ‘tribe’ to an inappropriate level of abstraction, that we’re inflating/conflating the term to cover everything about humanity?

(Every term under discussion should be placed in quotes, at least mentally)

If so, I’d agree. For instance, I’m certainly not part of a so-called Korzybski-tribe just because I read a book by him or can employ aspects of his paradigm. I wouldn’t die or kill or smear someone just to defend a particular thesis. I can argue a certain side, but not identify myself with it. That’s the dividing line, I think. Not identifying = true individuality.

My secularism, amateurism, and ADD has destroyed my sense of tribe :)

]]> By: William Loughborough http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2557 William Loughborough Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:03:19 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2557 I am shocked to discover such a huge pool of smart people none of whom seems to have even read Korzybski, let alone allowed such ideas as "the map is not the territory" to invade their musings. Love. I am shocked to discover such a huge pool of smart people none of whom seems to have even read Korzybski, let alone allowed such ideas as “the map is not the territory” to invade their musings.

Love.

]]> By: Jon Udell http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2515 Jon Udell Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:01:55 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2515 "some of the direct quotes at the session" Thanks Neil! That's a great writeup that nicely captures the event. It was astonishing, wasn't it? “some of the direct quotes at the session”

Thanks Neil! That’s a great writeup that nicely captures the event. It was astonishing, wasn’t it?

]]> By: Neil McAllister http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2506 Neil McAllister Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:24:39 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2506 Hey Jon! I remember that session with Wardell at the O'Reilly conference and being struck by its novelty. I had to go back and read the summary I wrote at the time to remember some of the direct quotes at the session. You can find that here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2001/11/13/p2pmil.DTL Hey Jon! I remember that session with Wardell at the O’Reilly conference and being struck by its novelty. I had to go back and read the summary I wrote at the time to remember some of the direct quotes at the session. You can find that here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2001/11/13/p2pmil.DTL

]]> By: DeanG http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2304 DeanG Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:41:37 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2304 Idealism...Skepticism...Pessimism...Cynicism. Article, Conclusion, Comments, Response. Idealism…Skepticism…Pessimism…Cynicism. Article, Conclusion, Comments, Response.

]]> By: Kevin Daly http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2252 Kevin Daly Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:59:04 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2252 Valid points, but what is the military but the ultimate expression of tribalism? We divide the world into "us" and "them", where "they" are portrayed as inherently depraved and irrational, deserving of death and destruction. And then come the wars...and what is war but the legitimisation of everything that is banned in normal human relations (violence, murder, theft and destruction of property...so no cause for surprise that rape always goes with it)? Flags and uniforms are the paraphernalia of tribalism. Isn't it time we all grew up? Valid points, but what is the military but the ultimate expression of tribalism?
We divide the world into “us” and “them”, where “they” are portrayed as inherently depraved and irrational, deserving of death and destruction.
And then come the wars…and what is war but the legitimisation of everything that is banned in normal human relations (violence, murder, theft and destruction of property…so no cause for surprise that rape always goes with it)?

Flags and uniforms are the paraphernalia of tribalism. Isn’t it time we all grew up?

]]> By: Mickipedia » Blog Archive » links for 2007-03-23 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2221 Mickipedia » Blog Archive » links for 2007-03-23 Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:46:49 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2221 [...] I have met the enemy and it is tribalism « Jon Udell Tribalism is an aspect of human nature, so it must once have served a purpose, but it no longer does. It’s a piece of evolutionary baggage that we can no longer afford to carry around. I don’t know if we can let go of it, but we had better at least tr (tags: web2.0, tribalism) [...] [...] I have met the enemy and it is tribalism « Jon Udell Tribalism is an aspect of human nature, so it must once have served a purpose, but it no longer does. It’s a piece of evolutionary baggage that we can no longer afford to carry around. I don’t know if we can let go of it, but we had better at least tr (tags: web2.0, tribalism) [...]

]]> By: Eric Niemandt http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2019 Eric Niemandt Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:29:21 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2019 Jon, you're blushing; having been flattered by a man in uniform ;-) Of course the military wants to build bridges; they want your knowledge, and to find ways to gain your co-operation so they can be more effective. Where is the surprise in that? Part of the reason that they want you is that they do not relate to others and organise themselves in the same way that you do. You've grown up in, attached to, and developed various social structures and relationships that have given you knowledge and confidence and protection to become a smart guy. You are differentiated from others because of that social context. That's your tribe. Kill off tribes, and you get conformity and uniformity. Innovation collapses, your gaze becomes blinkered, and you become incapable of seeing, yet alone dealing with, the diversity outside of your boundaries. Build bridges between tribes, for sure. But value diversity. We all have so much to learn from each other Jon, you’re blushing; having been flattered by a man in uniform ;-)

Of course the military wants to build bridges; they want your knowledge, and to find ways to gain your co-operation so they can be more effective. Where is the surprise in that?

Part of the reason that they want you is that they do not relate to others and organise themselves in the same way that you do. You’ve grown up in, attached to, and developed various social structures and relationships that have given you knowledge and confidence and protection to become a smart guy. You are differentiated from others because of that social context. That’s your tribe.

Kill off tribes, and you get conformity and uniformity. Innovation collapses, your gaze becomes blinkered, and you become incapable of seeing, yet alone dealing with, the diversity outside of your boundaries.

Build bridges between tribes, for sure. But value diversity. We all have so much to learn from each other

]]> By: Carl Henning http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2014 Carl Henning Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:06:32 +0000 http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/03/21/i-have-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-tribalism/#comment-2014 I wonder if parochialism does not fit the context better than tribalism - parochialism as an antonym for cosmopolitanism. These words seem almost archaic, but I think they are accurate. I wonder if parochialism does not fit the context better than tribalism – parochialism as an antonym for cosmopolitanism. These words seem almost archaic, but I think they are accurate.

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