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	<title>Comments on: Matthew Levine&#8217;s holy grail</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/</link>
	<description>Strategies for Internet citizens</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: CSS, Aspects, and Screencasting &#124; Zdot</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-142363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CSS, Aspects, and Screencasting &#124; Zdot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-142363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] his post, Matthew Levine’s holy grail, Jon praises the theory of CSS but bemoans the drudgery that so many of us [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] his post, Matthew Levine’s holy grail, Jon praises the theory of CSS but bemoans the drudgery that so many of us [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: &#187; Matthew Levine’s holy grail</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-1577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[&#187; Matthew Levine’s holy grail]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-1577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] post by Jon Udell     [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post by Jon Udell     [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: edddy</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[edddy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m trying to do CSS based design (for clients), and it is so hard, that is unbelievable that this is the &quot;better&quot; way to do things.

Even this very simple layout, has lines and lines of code, and a hack!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to do CSS based design (for clients), and it is so hard, that is unbelievable that this is the &#8220;better&#8221; way to do things.</p>
<p>Even this very simple layout, has lines and lines of code, and a hack!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jon Galloway</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Galloway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The generator over at Position Is Everything is pretty nice:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/pie-maker/pagemaker_2_9_home.html

Position Is Everything have made a name for themselves in tracking CSS support in various browsers, so I trust anything they endorse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The generator over at Position Is Everything is pretty nice:<br />
<a href="http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/pie-maker/pagemaker_2_9_home.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/pie-maker/pagemaker_2_9_home.html</a></p>
<p>Position Is Everything have made a name for themselves in tracking CSS support in various browsers, so I trust anything they endorse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael bernstein</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-352</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[michael bernstein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jon, Layout Gala may have what you need:
http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, Layout Gala may have what you need:<br />
<a href="http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-332</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Udell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-332</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;sounds like you need to write a book…&quot;

Not on this topic, though. After my first one went out of print in a year, I vowed never again to put so much work into writing about specific technologies. They move too fast. I /would/ like to write a general-interest book on the professional use of blogging. By which I do not mean blogging for a living, which only a few can or should or will ever do, but rather blogging to advance your public agenda as a professional in whatever field you work in.

I made a proposal:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/2005/12/29.html

But when I talked it over with an agent we agreed that the time is not yet right to reach many people with such a book. And if I ever tackle a project that hard again, I want at least a shot at reaching a lot of people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;sounds like you need to write a book…&#8221;</p>
<p>Not on this topic, though. After my first one went out of print in a year, I vowed never again to put so much work into writing about specific technologies. They move too fast. I /would/ like to write a general-interest book on the professional use of blogging. By which I do not mean blogging for a living, which only a few can or should or will ever do, but rather blogging to advance your public agenda as a professional in whatever field you work in.</p>
<p>I made a proposal:</p>
<p><a href="http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/2005/12/29.html" rel="nofollow">http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/2005/12/29.html</a></p>
<p>But when I talked it over with an agent we agreed that the time is not yet right to reach many people with such a book. And if I ever tackle a project that hard again, I want at least a shot at reaching a lot of people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Schinkel</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-324</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Schinkel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 02:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jon, sounds like you need to write a book... :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, sounds like you need to write a book&#8230; :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-309</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Udell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/&quot;

Excellent tip, and clearly a popular choice. Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/&#8221;</p>
<p>Excellent tip, and clearly a popular choice. Thanks!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jon Udell</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Udell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;A secondary requirement has always been Source-Ordered markup.&quot;

Yes, I noticed that and was bothered by it too. In this layout you can&#039;t have left column first in the markup, then middle, then right.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A secondary requirement has always been Source-Ordered markup.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, I noticed that and was bothered by it too. In this layout you can&#8217;t have left column first in the markup, then middle, then right.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-307</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jamie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: REVERT TO CONSOLE &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Holy Grail of CSS Layouts</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-306</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[REVERT TO CONSOLE &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Holy Grail of CSS Layouts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-306</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Jon Udell referenced this article yesterday in his blog, about the holy grail of 3 column CSS layout. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jon Udell referenced this article yesterday in his blog, about the holy grail of 3 column CSS layout. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Higgins</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Higgins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 03:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops, looks like your blogging software took out my DTD example - you can get it from the hsivonen.iki.fi site listed above.

One other thing, when messing with CSS, one of the most effective ways to work is to use Firefox&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/60/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dev Toolbar&lt;/a&gt; and rapidly tweak the CSS in realtime using the dev toolbar&#039;s &quot;Edit CSS&quot; function.  Once you&#039;re happy with the way your page looks, you can copy the rules you modified in &quot;Edit CSS&quot; (which go away when you close &quot;Edit CSS&quot; or navigate off the current page) back into your source CSS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, looks like your blogging software took out my DTD example &#8211; you can get it from the hsivonen.iki.fi site listed above.</p>
<p>One other thing, when messing with CSS, one of the most effective ways to work is to use Firefox&#8217;s <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/60/" rel="nofollow">Dev Toolbar</a> and rapidly tweak the CSS in realtime using the dev toolbar&#8217;s &#8220;Edit CSS&#8221; function.  Once you&#8217;re happy with the way your page looks, you can copy the rules you modified in &#8220;Edit CSS&#8221; (which go away when you close &#8220;Edit CSS&#8221; or navigate off the current page) back into your source CSS.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Higgins</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Higgins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 03:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jon, one thing you may wish to double-check is that your page is running in &#039;standards compliance mode&#039; rather than &#039;quirks mode&#039; - this can greatly affect your layout in IE and other browsers and it&#039;s good to switch over sooner rather than later.

My team has been happy with the HTML 4 strict DTD, which puts you in standards mode without the super-strictness of XHTML.  Just make sure that the line is the very first in the doc:


You can check which mode your doc is in using this trick:
http://www-03.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/BillHiggins?entry=determining_quirks_mode_vs_standards

Quick overview of standards/quirks mode and thorough listing of which DTD puts which browsers in which mode:
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, one thing you may wish to double-check is that your page is running in &#8216;standards compliance mode&#8217; rather than &#8216;quirks mode&#8217; &#8211; this can greatly affect your layout in IE and other browsers and it&#8217;s good to switch over sooner rather than later.</p>
<p>My team has been happy with the HTML 4 strict DTD, which puts you in standards mode without the super-strictness of XHTML.  Just make sure that the line is the very first in the doc:</p>
<p>You can check which mode your doc is in using this trick:<br />
<a href="http://www-03.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/BillHiggins?entry=determining_quirks_mode_vs_standards" rel="nofollow">http://www-03.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/BillHiggins?entry=determining_quirks_mode_vs_standards</a></p>
<p>Quick overview of standards/quirks mode and thorough listing of which DTD puts which browsers in which mode:<br />
<a href="http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/" rel="nofollow">http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peter Zingg</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Zingg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 01:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fourthing Yahoo UI Grid layout.  

I, like you, spent lots of time looking for the canonical 3-column cross-browser layout.  Yahoo Grid is easy to understand, and if you use their nifty reset.css you also get a clean plate to start out with -- no strange fonts or other hang ups.  I&#039;d like to see a CSS 101 book that takes you through all of the Yahoo UI stuff; it would be an ideal way for novices like me to learn the sometimes difficult-to-understand interactions of CSS.

Oh, and I use Firebug as an educational tool.  Does IE 7 have such a neat way to identify DOM elements and styles?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fourthing Yahoo UI Grid layout.  </p>
<p>I, like you, spent lots of time looking for the canonical 3-column cross-browser layout.  Yahoo Grid is easy to understand, and if you use their nifty reset.css you also get a clean plate to start out with &#8212; no strange fonts or other hang ups.  I&#8217;d like to see a CSS 101 book that takes you through all of the Yahoo UI stuff; it would be an ideal way for novices like me to learn the sometimes difficult-to-understand interactions of CSS.</p>
<p>Oh, and I use Firebug as an educational tool.  Does IE 7 have such a neat way to identify DOM elements and styles?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: macbeach</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-298</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[macbeach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/01/22/matthew-levines-holy-grail/#comment-298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I learned HTML early on and since I didn&#039;t earn my living doing that sort of thing I have never made the transition to CSS (although I can usually make an existing CSS set-up do something slightly different).  I suspect most web designers these days are using some high level tool to generate most of their content and it won&#039;t be long before doing HTML or CSS directly takes its place along side punched cards in the arcane history of computing.

The sad thing is that the original HTML, couples with frames and/or tables can accomplish the same results, rendered much faster with less stuff to download, and these primitive tools were designed to be approachable by the average content creator.

This is much the same as lamenting that kids these days don&#039;t know the basics of programming.  they&#039;ve been raised to drag and drop templates, tinker with canned settings, fiddle with color schemes, and then get into big big trouble when asked to change something in the underlying logic of the &quot;program&quot;.  More than once I&#039;ve heard them say &quot;I can&#039;t make it do that!&quot;

I don&#039;t know the solution.  Maybe the inventors of Visual Basic have some ideas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned HTML early on and since I didn&#8217;t earn my living doing that sort of thing I have never made the transition to CSS (although I can usually make an existing CSS set-up do something slightly different).  I suspect most web designers these days are using some high level tool to generate most of their content and it won&#8217;t be long before doing HTML or CSS directly takes its place along side punched cards in the arcane history of computing.</p>
<p>The sad thing is that the original HTML, couples with frames and/or tables can accomplish the same results, rendered much faster with less stuff to download, and these primitive tools were designed to be approachable by the average content creator.</p>
<p>This is much the same as lamenting that kids these days don&#8217;t know the basics of programming.  they&#8217;ve been raised to drag and drop templates, tinker with canned settings, fiddle with color schemes, and then get into big big trouble when asked to change something in the underlying logic of the &#8220;program&#8221;.  More than once I&#8217;ve heard them say &#8220;I can&#8217;t make it do that!&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the solution.  Maybe the inventors of Visual Basic have some ideas.</p>
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